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Ms V Gonda Interviews Pres M Tsvangirai (Pt One!)
Violet Gonda: Opposition leader Mr Morgan Tsvangirai is the guest on the programme 'Hot Seat'. Welcome on the programme Mr Tsvangirai.
Morgan Tsvangirai: Thank you.
Violet: Now Mr Tsvangirai Mugabe and his ZANU PF party plan to harmonise the Presidential election and Parliamentary election and move the Presidential poll from 2008 to 2010. The opposition has said it will resist this and launch a campaign for the 2008 Presidential election. First of all, how are you going to do that exactly?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, we as MDC have clear objectives as far as that proposal is concerned. Our first objective is to ensure that we as a party go on a campaign country-wide against such a proposal by mobilising the people to understand what this implies. The second objective is to ensure that together with the broad civic society we are able also to broaden the campaign to include our colleagues and partners in civic society. And thirdly, to insist that there shall be an election in 2008 under a new constitution remains our rallying cry for the nation to ensure that this crisis is not postponed by another three years.
Violet: Now, some agree that elections should be combined but they say that they should be extended from 2008 to 2010 to give people more time. Now, as the opposition, will you be ready if the elections are held next year as scheduled?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Violet, we will be more than ready. We have been ready since the formation of the party. That's why we beat Mugabe in the 2002 Presidential election, that's why we beat him in the 2005 Parliamentary election. What is only required is not the readiness of the opposition, what is required are the conditions under which these elections are being held. The free and fairness, the democratic control of national institutions like the electoral management systems, the police and the military. All that will ensure that the outcome is not pre-determined.
Violet: But still, again I ask, is there enough time for all these things to happen? You know, to fight for a new constitution and the opening up of the democratic space, because, the harmonisation process needs to be accompanied by serious reforms, as you've just said. Now, ZANU PF, Mugabe in particular, has made it clear that elections will be held in 2010. What is your concrete strategy, to ensure that this won't happen?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well the defiance is characteristic of Mugabe, we have heard him before, but, when there is sufficient mobilisation of the people like in 2002 or at the time of the campaign for a new national constitution, he will succumb. There is no way he can continue to defy his own people and the people at large because we know this 2010 project has no support within his own party. And so is the nation. The nation is saying we face such a critical colossal crisis that to delay to resolve this issue by a free and fair election will only mean that we have condemned the people by another three years.
Violet: But Mr Tsvangirai, the flawed electoral process has been a major complaint of the opposition since the parliamentary election in 2000 and subsequent elections after that. Some say Mugabe can easily turn around and say 'fine, let's have the election next year as scheduled', how will you stop these next elections from being rigged?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well the point is that I underlined the fact that we need an election under a new constitution and under a new electoral management system that will ensure that the vote is free and fair. It obviously poses a very critical question to the opposition to say at the right time do you participate in an election which is already pre-determined, or you insist that the election shall be conducted in a manner that is accepted internationally. This is the predicament, the dilemma that we face as a country. We want an election but we don't want an election under the current conditions because it will just mean that they will be rigged. So, it is a dilemma that we need to deal with and the people, I think, would insist, that in conditions where it is obvious that Mugabe has the full control of the rules and regulations of the elections, it's a futile exercise.
Violet: And, is it not prudent for your party or your parliamentarians to begin pushing in parliament for electoral reforms and use ZANU PF's denial in Parliament to launch mass action, that's what others would ask.
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, the problem is that parliament has proven to be a worthless exercise in so far as you can make noise but Mugabe ensured that he had his two thirds in March last year, in 2005, and so the debate by the opposition is just merely an exercise in futility.
Violet: So others would then ask why you continue to participate in an ineffective Parliament that ZANU PF uses to railroad through draconian legislation. What is the point then, is this not a contradiction?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well I think it's like participating in an election; what you do is you give some semblance of legitimacy to that process. But certainly, I have full confidence that that institution is working to the fullest benefit of the people other than just a conveyor belt of Mugabe's wishes.
Violet: You know, this is exactly the question that people keep asking. How is that institution working for the benefit of the people because Parliament is seen as ineffective and that the opposition should stop participating in Parliament? Just like they say you should stop participating in elections under what you say is an undemocratic constitution.
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, I think that what one has to understand is that from time to time this position is reviewed by the MDC as a tactical question and not as a matter of principle. As a matter of principle we would like to participate in elections but on a tactical basis it's no use going into an exercise in futility like I have said earlier which you know has no effect, you can make as much noise as you want but still the ruling party is in defiance and in denial as to what are the real issues that the parliament should be doing.
Violet: Now it's been reported that some ZANU PF moderates want Robert Mugabe to go early, so what is your party doing to build consensus with these so called reformers in ZANU PF?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, we have extended our patriotic hand to say that all patriots must come together now at this critical juncture in the history of the country, to have one common purpose, which is one common purpose in so far as ensuring that the elections are conducted as scheduled. And, to put the country first beyond the party's interests and the individual's interest. I think this call has sympathies in ZANU PF and we would certainly be in a position of finding means and ways of working with those people in ZANU PF who want to see this thing be resolved.
Violet: Have you actually been able to talk to these so-called reformers in ZANU PF?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Notin a formalised way but in an indirect way, we know the feelings in ZANU PF are just as strong as within MDC about …
Violet: What about… Sorry?
Morgan Tsvangirai : about this 2010 project.
Violet: What about the issue of getting people to participate. Who is working on getting rid of voter apathy because it's been said, that ZANU PF strategy to suppress, ZANU PF has always used that strategy to suppress voter turn-out, so what is happening about that?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, I'm sure that occasionally, depending on the people's interpretation, certain elections they tend to be apathetic. But I'm sure that the people of Zimbabwe are ready for the Presidential election, were ready to participate in the Parliamentary election. So it depends on how the people interpret an election as useful or not. So whilst there is this conclusion that there is apathy, I don't think that come certain elections the people of Zimbabwe will wake up and interpret that their vote will make a difference.
Violet: But, is it not a fact that people right now feel despondent. As the opposition leadership how do you get rid of that feeling especially as it has taken six years to get people on the streets?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, the thing is it's not about just going and getting people on the streets. I think that there's romanticism about this 'get people on the streets' pre-occupation. What is important is to what extent are the people themselves realising that they are in a struggle against a dictatorship. It takes a lot of education, it takes a lot of mobilisation, and that's what we have been working at, with limited resources. As you know resources equal results; we are not as endowed as the ZANU PF government with all the resources, the communication and all the monopoly of communication at its disposal. We don't have that. So we have to come up with a strategy that is going to be ensuring that our structures on the ground, our education on the ground, our message on the ground has to resonate with the feelings of the people. So the despondency may appear artificial and academic, but the people on the ground are not despondent. They know that they have to tackle the dictatorship and unless they themselves are involved, nothing will happen.
Violet: But as the opposition, how come you are failing to use the energy of all those people who attend your rallies, to protest? Why are they not marching on the streets if they can attend rallies in their thousands?
Morgan Tsvangirai: It's a million dollar question. It also depends on the response of the State, which has been brutal, and, you can understand that fear is endemic in the people, and it is how to get rid of that fear, how to get rid of this regime which is totalitarian, which is controlling all their lives. That will make a difference. For us, fear is a slow process; it's a process that you engage in for people to remove fear. But, it's generally fear; nothing else.
Violet : But you know, many ordinary Zimbabweans we speak to say they don't see any practical options that the opposition has, you know, that you can possibly take to dislodge Mugabe because they say everything you have said, or you are saying even now, you have said before. In Parliament you are outnumbered, when you call for stay-aways or mass action people don't participate. So how do you believe you will do it this time?
Morgan Tsvangirai: No, it's not about this time. You know the problem is that people believe that there is a time in a struggle. Just go back to your history and see that there was an armed struggle that started in 1963. It's only up to 1980 that that stage of that struggle was an armed struggle. So, one, there are phases in a struggle and there are moments in that struggle that can be exploited. Right now, at the moment we have this issue that can mobilise all Zimbabweans; the issue of the 2010. And it's just a question of what are the issues that can mobilise people. But to say that you have tried this, it has failed, you have tried this, therefore it is a permanent failure, I don't think so.
Violet: But you know, sorry to go back to the same issue , everyone knows that Mugabe is holding on to power; you know he has militarised the State, he has refused dialogue because if there was any dialogue we would have seen some progress in the country and there is no progress right now. And then the Government has made it clear that those who participate in mass action would be dealt by force. So what is your plan for dislodging ZANU PF given these circumstances?
Morgan Tsvangirai: I think that it's a strategic question 'what is your plan', I'm sure it would be naive to say that you would be able to articulate a plan and say we are going to do one, two, three things without necessarily having ZANU PF also having a counter-plan. What I'm saying here is pure and simple. The people of Zimbabwe must realise they are in a struggle for freedom, and that this regime is not convincingly on the side of being a perpetual dictator for ever. What I'm seeing is that it can be defeated. It can only be defeated by the people of Zimbabwe . The right to be on the right side of history is to do the right thing, and that's what the MDC and all the democratic forces are doing. And, eventually the people shall prevail. I can't give a timeframe; I can only rely on our experiences on the ground, our ability and capacity on the ground to overcome some of the obstacles that ZANU PF places in the way. One of the things is that we cannot follow ZANU PF's agenda, we have to design an agenda for ourselves, as I have outlined in the objectives earlier on, and that's what we have to work on.
Violet: But you know right know on the ground in Zimbabwe it seems like there has been a lot of fragmented activism; WOZA are doing their thing, NCA is doing their thing, but you know there doesn't seem to be a spark to unite these forces and it seems one …
Morgan Tsvangirai: No there is, there is already a forum, there is already a platform where all the political parties in the opposition and the civic society are working together under the 'Save Zimbabwe' campaign, and we have a programme for the whole year that we have outlined together. And I hope that there will be no fragmentation as you say, but a united campaign with a specific programme co-ordinated by the 'Save Zimbabwe' campaign.
Violet: But as we speak, we hear WOZA demonstrating, we hear NCA demonstrating, but no MDC, no Save Zimbabwe Coalition?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well the fact that we have a Save Zimbabwe Coalition does not mean that individual organisations cannot engage in protracted actions according to their own individual effort. But, at the end of the day when we co-ordinate the whole effort together, I am sure that it will have more impact.
Violet: And how would you answer people who say you promise things but they never materialise? You promised 'The Final Push', 'The Winter of Discontent', and at one point you said the MDC would not participate in future elections but you continue to participate in what you say is a flawed process. How do you respond to these statements?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Those are armchair critics. I don't promise anything. The fact that we said that there is a winter of discontent does not mean that the next day the action is there. I'm saying that as a programme this is where we are focusing on according to our agenda of the Congress. A winter of discontent can be a metaphor but it's being interpreted literally to mean that winter is from May to June therefore something must happen within that period. So I think that those are just people who are outside the sphere of the struggle who believe that things will come on a silver platter. It's not about what I say, it's about what we do.
Violet: OK, you said it was the agenda of the Congress, and one example was the Winter of Discontent, these are the timelines that you give as the opposition, so when …
Morgan Tsvangirai: But it was not a timeline, that's where you make a mistake. It was not a timeline, it was a metaphor making sure that people are mobilised as a discontent but not on a time-frame as to say that because winter is June to May therefore it should happen during that period. I said as a programme of action the democratic resistance of the MDC will start immediately as we finished our Congress in March and it's an on-going programme and we haven't abandoned that.
Violet: But it's over a year now since you said those things. When are we going to see the programme of action?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well you wait and see, it's going to happen.
Violet: Are people in your party preventing mass action from taking place?
Morgan Tsvangirai: What is happening is that mass action or popular resistance takes various forms and popular resistance cannot be defined in a particular action, one activity. It is the on-going pressure that you apply on the regime and it takes various organisational and resource needs on the ground.
Violet: The reason I'm asking this Mr Tsvangirai is, you know, people would then ask, what is causing the delay, because it would be understandable if there was a divergence of reaction in the party.
Morgan Tsvangirai : Well there was no divergence, there is no divergence. I mean we are all agreed. We adopted as one of the party programmes that the only game in town was a democratic resistance programme. The delay assumes various constraints that the party has. For people in Europe to go on those massive revolutions that have taken place over the last two, three years, there was massive resource input in that. We don't have that advantage. We suffer resource limitations; sometimes a programme is limited because there are no adequate resources. You know it takes a lot of organisational input throughout the country to have that impact. It's not that the people of Zimbabwe have never acted in the past.
Tune in next Tuesday for the final segment.
Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa 's Hot Seat programme (Tues 23 Jan).
Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com
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We bring you the second interview with Opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai. The Tsvangirai MDC announced recently it will be launching an election campaign for the 2008 election despite attempts by the Mugabe regime to move the Presidential poll to 2010. In this final segment, I started by asking Mr Tsvangirai if his party has a strategy to combat the current electoral laws
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well there is a lot of work that is already going by our legal committee on two fronts. One is the front on the constitutional principles agreed that are going to be adopted by the Party. And secondly, the legal constraints and the electoral conditions that make… (Inaudible due to phone problem)… sometimes deliberately undermine the electoral laws. So the legal committee is working and compiling. . .We will be going to court and we are discussing with ZEC some of the limitations and some of the malpractices that we have experienced. So we are taking that legal action in order to ensure that the legal framework is even. Whether we will succeed or not it’s up to the courts, but those are some of the actions that we are taking to ensure that there is a level playing field.
Violet: And on the issue of Mugabe and what’s happening in Zanu PF, how significant is Mugabe’s issue of appointing a successor to the strategy of the Opposition?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, he can appoint anyone who he wants, but as far as we are concerned, it’s not about the individual; replacing an individual face with another Zanu PF face. What we want is serious transformation of the electoral conditions and political conditions in the country. To us we don’t regard the change of guard, of individuals as transformation. We want to look at the constitution, we want to look at the electoral management system, we want to look at the reconstruction issues. And those issues are important because you are not necessarily looking at the face; you are looking at political culture.
Violet: And, what about the crisis in Zimbabwe that seems to be worsening because several experts are predicting a collapse of the state machinery, you know, a total collapse of the economy, and, civil servants being sent home. How would the MDC respond to this scenario?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, such a scenario is catastrophic for a country. I do agree that the statistics have shown colossal damage to our country in terms of economy and social fabric. Such a scenario would mean that the Opposition will have to articulate like we did about the Roadmap to the resolution of the national crisis. We continue to insist that is the path that can only save the country and those that are in Government must realise that this is the only viable route to the resolution of the national crisis. But such a scenario would be catastrophic
Violet: And what about the issue of the split in the MDC? Is there any possibility of reconciliation because observers fear that time is being wasted fighting each other and that…
Morgan Tsvangirai: No one has been fighting. We’ve never been fighting each other. Yes, there was disagreement, yes there was a splinter group, but there was an agreement that we shouldn’t throw stones against each other. There’s already a memorandum of agreement that has been signed in terms of how we relate to each other. There’s already been a team elected from our side to talk to the other side and I hope that they will see the need to engage that team, and, we haven’t got a report yet, hopefully there will be progress.
Violet: So would you meet with Mutambara who has in recent weeks been preaching reconciliation or rather co-operation between the pro-democracy groups?
Morgan Tsvangirai: I think that goes without saying. It’s not about meeting Mutambara, it’s about the agenda that we have set. We have said there is a team that we have assigned to talk to the other erstwhile colleagues of ours who have broken away and you cannot negotiate in public. Such a process would require a lot of confidence building and that’s the process we are doing. It’s no use talking about it, let’s go and go to the table and talk about how to move forward.
Violet: So there are talks that are underway, is that what you’re saying?
Morgan Tsvangirai: What I’m saying is that from our side we have got a team, we have a memorandum that we signed to ensure that there are no more these public acrimony, that people should sit down and talk, and, we hope that the other group will also appoint a team. That’s what we have been waiting. And, once those teams sit down they will be able to explore the areas of convergence and areas of divergence and try to narrow that and then come to the leadership of both groups to ensure that there is an understanding.
Violet: And, you know, some have asked that do you believe, as the leader of the Opposition, that you could have made mistakes. Do you feel culpable to some extent for the MDC split?
Morgan Tsvangirai: No, the question is that the MDC split was not an event, right. And that it was an accumulation of fault lines in the Party. In fact, I have kept the Party together up to that point. So, when people look at the split in the MDC they cannot justify the split by targeting an individual to say ‘you were responsible for it’, it was a process, and I think all the leadership in MDC, including myself, have to accept responsibility for the so called splinter, but, there were outside forces, there were outside big players influencing that split. So, one cannot point at the MDC and say ‘it’s because of the leaders’. I mean, I have to find out where somebody can point out that.
Violet: By outside forces, you mean Zanu PF? Infiltration?
Morgan Tsvangirai: There were a combination of factors, there were outside influences that’s all I can say from the Party, inside Zimbabwe, outside Zimbabwe. There were influences that motivated others to think that that was the only way to go.
Violet: And, do you also think that you have done everything that you can possibly do to stop violence in the Party and also on the issue of accusations about the Kitchen Cabinet?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Ya, those are just mild accusations that have no substance. It is the language that is used by my erstwhile colleagues and I don’t want to answer them on that. There is no violence in the Party; at least there is no violence sanctioned by the leadership. If there is sporadic violence in the Party it is not condoned by the Party; we deal with it. As to the Kitchen Cabinet, those are just accusations from people who have no substantive accusations.
Violet: And you know if the MDC comes to power, whether it’s 2008 or 2010, what strategy does the MDC have to consolidate the peace and security within the country given the fact that the security forces are a politicised institution?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, I think that that’s a major challenge for an in-coming administration of the MDC; how do you build confidence amongst the people. The only way you can do that is to establish the rule of law. Everyone has to behave in a manner that advances the rule of law. That there will be no violation of the law with impunity, that there is no retribution. That is going to be a vindictive programme of the MDC. We want to rebuild the country, we will have to focus on the reconstitution agenda, we have to demonstrate that we have the nation’s interests at heart, we have to build confidence across the political divide, we have to be tolerant.
Violet: You have from time to time called people to brace themselves for a sustained programme of democratic resistance. But, some people say, with all due respect, it seems like repeats of the same words that you’ve been saying over the years. Do you, to some extent agree that your performance has been disappointing as the Opposition?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, every leader has to be open to criticism and as far as I’m concerned, I’m not immune to criticism. But I certainly believe that I have performed. The fact that people want results yesterday without them participating cannot be blamed on the leader. It has to be blamed on the capacity of the people themselves, to realise that this is not a Tsvangirai struggle, this is a people struggle and that their involvement would make a difference. We have shown it before, that when people act together, when people are mobilised together over a common purpose the result will be substantial. So this is not a Tsvangirai problem, this is a people’s problem. And the people cannot stand on the terraces and accuse the leader for doing nothing.
Violet: But, do you agree that in any conflict situation, people do need leadership
Morgan Tsvangirai: That’s what we have provided. For the last six years we have provided that leadership and I am sure that the record is there for anyone to make an assessment
Violet: But, how do you get the people on to the streets, in other words what is your strategy at the moment in terms of forming a powerful movement because for the last six years people haven’t gone…
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well the Opposition movement has for the last six years provided the democratic resistance programme as a programme of a strategy of pressure on the regime. That’s a strategy and that strategy needs the resources, the support, the organisation on the ground and that’s what we are doing.
Violet: So would you say in a way that maybe people don’t want mass action because, you know…
Morgan Tsvangirai: What do they want?
Violet: ... because, if you say you’ve done this as an Opposition and it’s now up to the people some will say people are tired and hungry and pre-occupied with obtaining basic commodities. Do you think there is widespread support for action then, because we haven’t seen people taking to the streets?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, look, people have an option; either to submit to the conditions that they face or to stand up and be counted. That is the challenge that I give to the people; you stand up and be a challenge, don’t just complain and you cannot accuse other people of not doing anything when you yourself are not doing anything. So all I’m saying is that there is a challenge to Zimbabweans that freedom is not easy, freedom is not cheap.
As we have experienced in the armed struggle, those who have sacrificed, sacrificed with the full conviction that freedom has to be fought for. And, that’s what we tell the people and we try to build that confidence in the people to say no one is going to liberate you, no one is going to free you from the clutches of this dictatorship. People have to participate and there are so many things that can be done; training, educating people, motivating people. But, if people decide on their own individual that they will not do anything, well it’s those individuals.
Violet: I was going to say that if people don’t turn up do you think you will have a problem, which will hurt the long term prospects for growing the Party because the State has the capacity to easily crush any mass uprising. So, do you have any other alternative policies?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Violet, who in the imagination would have thought that the Soviet Union would collapse - if you were to ask with all that might of the army, the military might. But it collapsed with the full conviction of the people that it was no longer serving their interest. One day we will celebrate the victory of the people over this dictatorship. I wholly believe that.
Violet: And, before we go, do you have any final words?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, I don’t have any final word, I think we’ve exhausted what we discussed, the themes that you have raised. In 2007 there is an opportunity for Zimbabweans to mobilise themselves because of the rupture in Zanu PF about the succession debate, that provides an opportunity to the Opposition. Let’s go for it.
Violet: Is to some extent the Opposition waiting for Mugabe’s successor to come into place?
Morgan Tsvangirai: No, no, no. We are not waiting. I told you that the programme of democratic resistance is a programme of the Party, this is the Programme in town today, that’s the only game in town. And, that involves a number of work plans that we are putting in place because we realise that this regime, given it’s vulnerability at the moment and the divisions and the factionalism in Zanu PF provides the Opposition with an opportunity to rally the people to resolve the national crisis.
Violet Gonda: OK, thank you very much Mr Tsvangirai for agreeing to talk on the programme ‘Hot Seat’
Morgan Tsvangirai: You are welcome, thank you.
Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa’s Hot Seat programme. Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com
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