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Interview Part 1: Tsvangirai, Madhuku and Mutambara
On SW Radio Africa's 'Hot Seat' progframme, journalist Violet Gonda interviews MDC President Morgan Tsvangirai followed by a teleconference with another MDC President Professor Arthur Mutambara and NCA chairman Dr. Lovemore Madhuku:
Last updated: 05/02/2007 01:52:34
Broadcast on May 1, 2007
Broadcast on May 1, 2007
Violet: Opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai is the guest on the programme 'Hot Seat' today. Welcome Mr Tsvangirai
Morgan Tsvangirai: Thank you Violet
Violet Gonda: Now people have experienced a wave of brutality in recent days in Zimbabwe and you were one of those who was brutalised recently. Are you surprised at how brutal the regime has become?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Things that you need to make an assessment Violet is that all dictators reach a point where they have to reach a point of no return and actually raise up the stakes in the confrontation between the state and the people. We are not surprised that the regime has upped the ante in response to peoples' genuine concerns by resorting to this kind of brutal violence, but it's indicative of a regime which is under siege, which is not able to respond to the demands of the people.
Violet: And with what you're seeing on the ground right now, is 2008 a good year for elections and does the Opposition stand a chance of defeating Zanu PF with the level of violence that is currently taking place in Zimbabwe right now?
Morgan Tsvangirai: We are already witnessing the pre-emptive strike of Zanu PF characteristic of any pre-election preparations; the attack on the Opposition, dismantling of the Opposition ability to hold meetings, the seizure of Opposition equipment and Secretariat services, the targeting of Opposition activists at various layers of the Party.
It's all trying to dis-enable the Opposition from functioning normally in a democratic society. So without removing those kind of obstacles it is difficult to hold an election under those circumstances because you are going into a situation in which there is no level playing field because the Ruling Party is determining, by its own rules, the outcome.
Violet: So while preparations or negotiations for talks are underway what is being done right now to stop the violence and what is the MDC doing in terms of voter education?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, let's separate the two. There is a State sponsored violence by Zanu PF, State machinery against the MDC, which has resulted in over 600 people being abducted, being beaten, and, about 150 sustaining injuries that required hospitalisation. This on going campaign is, as I've said, targeting the MDC in order to weaken its ability to operate normally. So, the second part of the equation, which is voter education, becomes irrelevant because the State will always ensure that those kind of meetings don't take place. And you know, by no means, that no one is allowed to carry out voter education except the Commission which has no capacity to carry out such a mammoth task which would require a wide range of civic society to carry it out.
Violet: So, how can you have a free and fair election by next year and when there are serious media controls and a frightened population?
Morgan Tsvangirai: It is almost impossible to talk of a free and fair election in Zimbabwe under the current circumstances if the current circumstances prevail. One of the things that you have to understand is that as long as Zanu PF controls the machinery of elections it is like having a referee who throws the whistle away and joins the other team. It is almost impossible to talk of a free and fair election under the current circumstances in which the electoral machinery is militarised, the voter registration is bastardised and there is massive disenfranchisement, including, of course, disenfranchisement of Zimbabweans living abroad in the Diaspora. We can't even talk about the manner in which there is a central command of the election results. We can't even talk of the whole machinery excluding external observation so from my experience over the last seven years; the last seven and a half years; it is almost impossible to talk of a free and fair election in Zimbabwe.
Violet: So what is your vision of the way forward and what do you expect from South African President Thabo Mbeki?
Morgan Tsvangirai: We hope that President Thabo Mbeki, as he's already outlined his focus is to ensure that, and of course by his admittance, that he accepts in Zimbabwe there has never been any free and fair election and what he is focusing is to ensure that this time around the election is conducted in a free and fair manner. That it will not be a disputed outcome again which has been the source of the dispute and the source of the crisis in Zimbabwe.
Violet: And what is the status of the talks right now?
Morgan Tsvangirai: So far what has happened is that President Thabo Mbeki has written to all the political leaders in Zimbabwe; me, Mutambara and the President, Mugabe, outlining how he foresees his new mission, and we hope that he is given all the support to succeed because the country cannot afford to postpone this crisis as it has reached unacceptable levels.
Violet: Right. And, you know in your talks with President Mbeki, what is your impression about his capacity to negotiate a settlement; a peaceful settlement.
Morgan Tsvangirai: I think that one has to make a distinct distinction between his earlier initiative on quiet diplomacy as the concern of a neighbour as opposed to this initiative which has the backing of the whole SADC region. This crisis, as somebody has said, Zimbabwe cannot behave as if it has got a Chinese wall around it, but what happens in Zimbabwe affects everyone around and that is the collective concern that has been expressed by this mandate that has been given to President Mbeki.
I hope that there has been a serious paradigm shift in the approach to the crisis, that once bitten twice shy, that President Mugabe cannot be trusted to engage in meaningful principled dialogue because of his stubbornness. And I hope that this time there's enough leverage to ensure that the parties that are engaged in negotiations actually do so to a successful conclusion.
Violet: So given that his quiet diplomacy has not changed much in Zimbabwe, do you think Mbeki is an honest broker and is it reasonable to expect much from South Africa's mediation?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, it's immaterial who has been chosen as a mediator. All I know is that President Mbeki is the mediator who has been chosen by the region, it could be somebody else but they chose President Mbeki because of the leverage that he has on the region. And, we hope that he uses that leverage, the collective wisdom of the region and the collective pressure on the region and international community to bear on President Mugabe to come to the negotiating table.
Of course, it is not just sufficient to rely on the mediation of President Mbeki but I think that the people of Zimbabwe themselves must realise that they have to continue to mobilise pressure on the regime to realise that there is no option but to negotiate. Now, the problem we have is that people have made their own personal sceptical assessment whether President Mbeki is an honest broker or not. For me, it is not a personal assessment. I think that he has a new mandate and I think that he can act responsibly within the context of the whole SADC mandate.
Violet: You know the reason I asked that question is because it is widely believed that the Opposition is being told to follow a particular path, a path that has been agreed by Mbeki and Robert Mugabe. Now, do you think Zimbabweans will get a fair deal this time?
Morgan Tsvangirai: We have not been instructed by anyone to follow a particular path. We have put our views that in our view the most viable option is the Roadmap to legitimacy which we have outlined with three signposts, that there has to be negotiated settlement, there has to be a new constitution, that there has to be free and fair elections. We have not been directed to take any other route other than what we have already put on the table and I hope that President Mugabe and President Mbeki have got, & if President Mugabe has got any other views they should be put on the table. And, I don't think that President Mbeki, as a mediator or as a facilitator can dictate what course of action Zimbabweans have to devise, design for themselves. Let me underline the fact that President Mbeki is not the negotiator; he is the mediator, the facilitator. The negotiators are the two political, or the various political actors in the political crisis in Zimbabwe.
Violet: Now, we've, it's been reported that Joyce Mujuru, the Vice President, has held talks with South African officials and we have heard that the two Secretary Generals in the MDC; Welshman Ncube and Tendai Biti; have also held talks. But, have the political leaders themselves, for example yourself; have you held talks with Thabo Mbeki yourself?
Morgan: No, I have not met President Mbeki. I hope to do so at the most opportune time available. But, let me say that there is no way in the world where the National leaders negotiate I mean you send teams and define their mandate. In this case, our Secretary Generals went to South Africa at the invitation of the Mbeki's Office to discuss the preliminary examination of what is possible. And I think that's what was done - to outline what we believe is the way forward. The negotiations have not started yet. And I think in any negotiating process there are always preliminary discussions in order to lay down the basis for those negotiations and this is mostly done by junior officers.
Violet: Right, and what is your commitment to a CODESA kind of arrangement with all stakeholders and not just politicians negotiating behind the scenes.
Morgan Tsvangirai: All Zimbabweans have a stake to the future of the country and it is not the monopoly of political parties to define that path for the future of Zimbabweans. I have no hard feelings whatsoever about the participation of all Zimbabweans but you know that you have to limit the number of people that will be at the negotiating table. This is a political contest and political contest require political actors. I know the concerns of civic society but sometimes it is necessary to limit the number of actors that will be at the negotiating table and in most cases it is the political parties that actually negotiate with of course, the support of their civic society allies. But, if it can be defined as to who wants to be at that table, I have no hard feelings against anyone participating in that process.
Violet: Now, Dr Lovemore Madhuku, the NCA Chairperson, says the stakeholders in the Save Zimbabwe Campaign are not being consulted at all and that the civic society is being left out. Should they not be playing a role in these talks, even at this preliminary stage?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, it depends who is consulting who. As far as I'm concerned, we, together with our civic society partners we briefed them of what is taking place but of course what Dr Madhuku is requesting is a formal place at the negotiations or at those discussions. I cannot determine who should be at that table. As I said, I've no hard and fast rule as to who should be there provided we are all guided by the fact that we need to find a way forward for the crisis. As for our civic society partners, we have a General Council. I hope that at the next General Council we will find an opportunity to brief our civic society partners as to what has been taking place. We are not hiding anything.
Violet: Who determines who participates in these talks, is it Thabo Mbeki or Robert Mugabe?
Morgan Tsvangirai: No, it's supposed to be the mediator, the mediator is the one who determines who should be at the negotiating table. And I hope that he can determine who he wants to engage and who are the main principle protagonists in the whole process.
Violet: And while this is going on, you said earlier that at least 600 activists have been either beaten or are in jail, meaning that the violence continues in Zimbabwe. Now do you think Thabo Mbeki has the capacity to persuade Robert Mugabe to adopt democratic reforms and dissuade him from using violence?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well let's say that President Thabo Mbeki has been given a mandate. Of course President Mugabe will continue to claim his sovereignty but he has got a crisis on his hands and that crisis has to be resolved. I hope that President Thabo Mbeki will impress upon President Mugabe to stop this violence because it is not contributing to the conducive atmosphere for dialogue. It is not building the necessary confidence in the Opposition ranks and such kind of state sponsored violence may actually undermine the very same negotiating process we are all aiming to achieve.
Violet: Right, and some have said that all Mbeki has to do is threaten to close the border, like what South Africa did with Ian Smith. Do you agree with this?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, the tactics that, the pressure that President Mbeki will use are I can't define how he will use it but I suppose that he knows his pressure points to apply and I cannot certainly determine which pressure, which tactics to use to impress upon President Mugabe…
Violet: And finally, Mr Tsvangirai, do you think it's in Mugabe's interests to get a new Constitution?
Morgan Tsvangirai: Well, let me be very frank, that the country is in the crisis because it is in because it has closed all democratic space and any form of reform for Mugabe is capitulation. But without reform there is no future for the country. So, he has an option. It's a no-win situation. Without reform there is no future for the country, with reform it means that Zanu PF cannot survive the will of the people because the will of the people have already been expressed in 2002, 2005, and he knows full well that his call for recognition as a legitimate head is now hollow.
It's like Muzorewa in 1979 where he went to an election but the election was never legitimate because it was challenged by Robert Mugabe himself. So, the current situation is that Robert Mugabe may shout, may scream, but the ultimate thing that should be upon him is that he needs the legitimacy of the people. We have reached a defining moment in so far as the next election will be very crucial in how the country is able to be rescued, is able to be saved from this current crisis. But it depends on the good will of the Ruling Party, of the Opposition in putting our heads together in finding a solution to the crisis.
But of course, this is not of the benevolence of Zanu PF, on the part of the Opposition and on the part of the Zimbabweans, it's a demand that Zanu PF must realise it has no option unless of course they want to burn down the building, in which case of course it's suicidal.
Violet Gonda: OK, thank you very much Mr Tsvangirai.
Morgan Tsvangirai: Thank you bye.
Violet Gonda: And that was the leader of one of the MDCs, Mr Morgan Tsvangirai. I then caught up with the other MDC leader Professor Arthur Mutambara and constitutional law expert and civic leader Dr. Lovemore Madhuku. Welcome on the programme Hot Seat.
Arthur Mutambara: Thank you very much for the opportunity
Lovemore Madhuku: Thank you.
Violet: I am going to start with Prof Mutambara, when you first entered mainstream or active politics last year you said the MDC needed new strategies. You said the opposition could not afford to go to elections without Plan B and also Plan C, D and E. Now elections are going to be held next year and nothing seems to be happening on the ground besides an increase in violence, what inroads have you made since last year?
Arthur Mutambara: Ya, in fact everything is happening on the ground. We are making it very clear that we don't want any election in our country without a new people driven constitution. We don't want elections in our country without electoral law reform. We don't want elections in our country without removal of repressive legislation such as AIPPA and POSA.
Our demands are very clear that before any elections in our country we must create conditions for free and fair elections and those demands are shared among the opposition parties and also shared with the civic society players as well. So we are very organised on the ground. We are very clear in our minds. We do not want to participate in a fraudulent process, which has predetermined results because when we do that we are basically legitimising criminal conduct on behalf of ZANU. So we are very clear on our minds as to what we want and how we are going to get. So our defiance campaigns in the country are to agitate for dialogue for communication between all stakeholders in a very inclusive way so that ZANU, civic society, the opposition parties can sit down and come up with minimum conditions that will allow us to have free and fair elections in the country. Secondly…
Violet: But what you are seeing on the ground right now in Zimbabwe, you know with the violence, is 2008 a good year for elections and does the opposition stand any chance of defeating Zanu PF if you are being brutalised?
Arthur Mutambara: So you must understand the sequencing of our agenda. Before you discuss elections you talk constitution. Before you talk elections you talk electoral law reform. Before you talk constitution you talk about removing AIPPA and POSA. That is the first business of the day. After that then we say once we have conditions for free and fair elections – how do we fight those elections? How do we ensure we will win? That's where we come to the second agenda, which says – a united front informed by a single candidate principle where in every election presidential, parliament, senate, mayoral, council there will be one candidate in every constituency against Mugabe. We will make sure every vote will count against Mugabe. That's part two on the agenda. After we have achieved minimum conditions then we are going to make sure as the opposition in Zimbabwe, as opposition parties, we are going to close ranks. We are going to put national interests before self interests and push for a united front inspired by a single candidate philosophy as our stage two in our struggle to destroy and defeat Zanu PF.
Violet: Now Dr. Madhuku, this is what the opposition would want to see happening in Zimbabwe but with the situation as it is right now, do you see these things happening?
Lovemore Madhuku: Ya, very much so. I think the whole point that Professor Mutambara is making is that we simply have to have a clear agenda and the agenda that we have is to democratise our country. You create conditions that will allow Zimbabweans to participate fully in the political processes. So we are working on a programme of unity, fight together for a new constitution, fight together for electoral reform, and get repressive legislation removed.
Once you have these things done and clearly you can move on to the next stage, which he says really clearly – where the political parties have to play the role now. You know campaigning, getting one candidate and so forth. So these things can happen and they are actually happening. I think you have already seen what has already happened in the past one month or so.
Violet: Now you have been organising street protests in Zimbabwe for about 7 years and some people will say all that has been noted is the brutality of the regime. In your opinion what effect have the demonstrations had or what have demonstrations achieved so far?
Lovemore Madhuku: They have achieved a lot. What they have not achieved is to produce a new constitution but have achieved everything else that we have been intending. Conscientising the public, get people to realise what they have to do. As we speak now I am very happy that all the forces in the country believe that we need a new people driven democratic constitution. That's what those demonstrations have been all about and that is an achievement.
Violet: Professor Mutambara are constitutional reforms an antidote to national despair and isn't more required like accountability & transparency?
Arthur Mutambara: The constitution is a starting point. It defines the terms of reference of our struggle. Everything else follows after the constitution. As Dr. Madhuku would like to put it, "seek first the kingdom of the new constitution everything else will follow." So we believe that unless and until we resolve the issues around the constitution we can't even begin to talk about transparency, accountability – these are secondary matters. Once we have in place a people driven democratic constitution we then move on to resolve the issue of illegitimacy in our country, resolve the issue of governance in our country, resolve the issue of our economy, the economic stabilisation, economic recovery, economic transformation, to convert Zimbabwe from the economic crisis from poverty to the promise land to make Zimbabwe a globally competitive economy. To make Zimbabwe a country characterised by business growth, entrepreneurship, beneficiation, exports and FDI. Those things cannot happen unless and until we resolve the agenda of the big law – the framework sector in our country, which is the constitution. So it is not incidental it is the main agenda. And then electoral law reforms and removal of AIPPA will allow us to have these free and fair elections so that whoever is elected President they are not contested, they are not challenged by those who have lost. As long as we go through elections that are fraudulent, that are defined by a fraud we cannot have legitimacy in our country.
On brutality and violence: it is a confirmation of what we have said all along. Mugabe is a brutal dictator. Mugabe is not a liberator. Mugabe is not a land revolutionary he is simply a despot who is brutalising Africans – Black Africans! Who is denying Africans human rights, who is denying Africans economic rights and economic opportunities and so the violence taking place in the country – the torture and brutally – is a clear demonstration to Africans that Mugabe has become a negation of the liberation war. Mugabe has become a negation of the principles of emancipation, freedom and justice and consequently Africans in SADC, Africans in South Africa, Africans in Africa and the Diaspora must stand together with the opposition in their condemnation and fight against Mugabe. What are we doing about it…
Violet: We will come back to the issue of what Africa can do about the situation in Zimbabwe but I want to go back to the issue of Mugabe and the constitution. Now he has vowed that he will never allow the opposition – the MDC, to take power while he is alive. Now do you honestly think it is in Mugabe's interest to get a new constitution?
Arthur Mutambara: Here is the answer. Yes, Mugabe does not want to give us a new constitution. Yes, Mugabe does not want to give us electoral reforms. Yes, Mugabe does not want to give up POSA and AIPPA but what choice does he have? We are not depending on Mugabe to commit political suicide. We are not depending on Mugabe to self-destruct on our behalf! We are saying the people of Zimbabwe will force Mugabe screaming and shouting to the negotiating table. The people of the region the Africans will force Mugabe to do what is right about Zimbabwe. We are not depending on his benevolence. He has no choice but to give in to the demands of the people of Zimbabwe. In the same way that Ian Smith gave in to the people of Zimbabwe. In the same way that the South African Whites gave in to a new dispensation. He has no choice but to give justice, independence and freedom a chance in our country.
Violet: Now what about this SADC initiative. Is it reasonable to expect much from South Africa's mediation?
Arthur Mutambara: Yes, we believe that the SADC summit was a great victory for the people of Zimbabwe. Mugabe tried to grandstand and give an impression that he won at the SADC summit. That it was an excellent meeting and it was victory for him. It wasn't. He was grilled at the SADC meeting and the Africans made it clear to him they won't allow his behaviour and conduct within SADC. What they did publicly was to do some PR to appear as if they are not taking instructions from Europe and America. But the content of that debate was positive for the people of Zimbabwe. The fact that they met to discuss Zimbabwe is victory. The fact that they came up with a mandate for Mbeki and appointed Mbeki as an inter-mediator and facilitator was victory. It is an acceptance that Mugabe has failed to run the affairs of our country.
So we have cautious optimism that something will come out of the initiative and we are saying to the West, we are saying to everyone let's allow the Africans space to intervene and try to bring about change in the country. So we are very keen to make sure that we give SADC a chance, that we give Mbeki a chance to facilitate dialogue among Zimbabweans. Mugabe lost at that summit. He tried to carry out propaganda but if you look at the details of that conference Botswana, Tanzania, Zambia gave Mugabe a roasting on the issues of Zimbabwe. And now Mbeki is operating with a regional mandate, which mandate says – there must be dialogue among Zimbabweans. Zimbabweans must become masters of their own destiny.
South Africa cannot succeed when there is chaos in Zimbabwe. South Africa cannot have the 2010 soccer – the World Cup in their country, when there is chaos in Zimbabwe. So South Africa has a vested interest to ensure that there is progress and there is dialogue and resolution of the Zimbabwean crisis for purely their own national strategic interests. There is no way in hell South Africa can have a successful 2010 World Cup when there is chaos in our country. The demise of Zimbabwe is the demise of SADC, the demise of Zimbabwe is the demise of South Africa.
Violet: But Dr. Madhuku, if there should be dialogue among Zimbabweans things seem to be going on at a higher and only political level right now what role is the civic society playing in these negotiations?
Lovemore Madhuku: Well I think before I answer that I wanted to just add a point there that the success of the SADC initiatives, Mbeki's involvement, would depend very much on what kind of pressure is going to be exerted on Mugabe internally here… I think more and more pressure would have to be put before the initiative itself has chances of success. To come to your question, which is the involvement of civic society, I think we still are going to be involved. We have not yet been involved at the level of the discussions. I am not sure how much has taken place at the moment. But I believe that at some point we will be asked to get involved. But at the moment not yet.
Violet: When I spoke with you for our Newsreel programme you had said that civic society were not being consulted about this, is this still an issue with the civic society?
Lovemore Madhuku: It's obviously an issue. But there has been some development. Some of our colleagues from the political parties have been talking to us just giving us some information on what they have been discussing with the South African officials. But that is still very much informal. We really don't know what type of negotiations are going to take place. We really are not clear on this, I should be honest with you. The civics don't know what is happening. We believe that when the time comes for us to be involved we really have to put our issues.
We are currently happy that the political parties are speaking the language that we are all sharing, the language of fighting for a new constitution, democratising space before elections. But we don't trust political parties. We know that when the time comes there will be a lot of compromises that will be made and it is at the stage of making compromises where we feel that we need to be more alert ourselves as civic society because we are obviously operating from a different angle. Political parties seek power we want to get into office. Professor Mutambara has been speaking very well but we are not ourselves believing that they will go all the way - the way he is speaking. I mean if he is going to do that then he will get all our trust but this habit that politicians tend to change and tend to make compromises and that is where we have difficulties.
Violet: And also still on that issue, will dialogue alone work and do you have faith in this Mbeki led initiative?
Lovemore Madhuku: I think we should give it a lot of chance really because at the moment it is an initiative that is coming after clear action on the ground in Zimbabwe and then it's also really blessed by SADC. It's a SADC initiative; I think it's better to be described as a SADC initiative. And so we should give it hope but our problem here is that we continue to hear Mugabe making quite militant statements and his latest outburst recently at the Independence celebrations at Rufaro (Stadium) tends to show that he is still believing that there should be no pre-conditions relating to the 2002 Presidential election and he keeps on accusing the opposition and all of us of being puppets of the West and I believe he wants to buy time.
And if the mediation process does not take place quickly, then we run the risk that Mugabe will simply once again put in place an election time table that does not take into account the mediation efforts. And it will be at that point that two things will have to be clear.
First what SADC would say if Mugabe starts initiating electoral processes and then secondly - what the road for civic society and the opposition would say because once he initiates electoral processes there has to be a response. Either a response of saying "well will allow Mugabe to go on" – because let me give you an example, under the initiatives that Zanu PF has brought up is the question of trying to put Amendment 18 to the constitution.
I foresee a situation where you need two months for bills to be gazetted, which is already a process to amend the constitution the way Mugabe has been doing it. It is responses to those kinds of initiatives, which will tell whether there is any serious efforts on the part of SADC to really resolve the crisis here and also whether there is any serious effort among ourselves to respond really decisively to those kind of initiatives.
Violet Gonda: We spoke to Professor Arthur Mutambara and Dr. Lovemore Madhuku for an extended period of time about many issues and we will bring you more of that interview on Tuesday's Hot Seat programme next week.
Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa's Hot Seat programme.
Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com
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